Language in FE7x

Talk about FE7x here, plz.

Language in FE7x

Myke
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Myke
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Joined: Apr 16 2009, 05:54 PM

Feb 2 2010, 06:31 PM #1

What level of cussing would you prefer in FE7x?

Total votes: 16
7(44%)
3(19%)
6(38%)
0(0%)

Not 'armor' vs 'armour' (I've already been put in my place on that one), but off-colour language.
Keeping in mind that this is a rather colourful game with cartoony representations of cute little men performing acts of implied, bloodless violence on each other - despite the sometimes gripping drama and tragedy - it has come to our attention several times now that my use of descriptive words might not go over so well with some of our players.

Three examples rear their head in the prologue script, 'shit-head' and 'bastard' belonging to Uther, and a 'horseshit' belonging to Mazda. Fargus drops a few 'bastards' and then it's pretty clear until we meet Melanie, where it all falls apart.
So if you're quite fine with such character development gems as...
[Melanie]
Thrice-damned overgrown pelican!
He damn near splits me in half on the ride o'er, then kicks me bloody ribs in!
[Zephyr]
He didn't mean it, Mel. It was a reflex and you just happened to be in the way.
[Melanie]
Bull-shit.
If any o' my bones are broken, we'll be having horseflesh through the winter. An' put a cushion on that bloody saddle! I feel like I've had fuckin' twins!
Then the first option's for you. If you'd rather characters like Melanie toned it down and they were only used for expressions of extreme anger or by certain villains, then you'll want 'Reserved'. 'Restricted' means only the most drastic of circumstances will call for cussing, and 'Substituted' means you're probably offended by this post.
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Feaw
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Feaw
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Feb 2 2010, 07:11 PM #2

Free'd, but I doubt many more people will vote for that =/.
~~ ~~ ~~
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Kelsper
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Feb 2 2010, 07:17 PM #3

You'd be suprised.

Free because it builds emotion. Yay.
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Freenhult
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Feb 2 2010, 09:07 PM #4

I say reserved. If this is to be played truely as a Fire Emblem then it should be kept in the spirit of the intial series and franchise. I understand the need for each to his and spin, but I don't think this needs much. The vernacular back then in feudal times was much much different than now. That's something that needs to be researched and cross-referenced properly.
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Myke
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Feb 2 2010, 10:33 PM #5

Freenhult @ Feb 3 2010, 07:07 AM wrote: I say reserved. If this is to be played truely as a Fire Emblem then it should be kept in the spirit of the intial series and franchise. I understand the need for each to his and spin, but I don't think this needs much. The vernacular back then in feudal times was much much different than now. That's something that needs to be researched and cross-referenced properly.
I don't think the vernacular is a valid topic of discussion here, being that until the 16th Century (ie. The Scientific Revolution, The Columbian Exchange, the first flushing toilet, the first portable watch, etc), they spoke either Old English (which is literally gibberish to the average english-speaker) or Middle English, which looked like this;
    Prologue to the Canterbury Tales:

    Whan that Aueryłł wt his shoures soote,
    The droghte of Marcħ, hath perced to the roote;
    And bathed euery veyne in swich lycour,
    Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
    Whan zephirus eek wt his sweete breeth,
    Inspired hath in euery holt and heeth;
    The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne,
    Hath in the Ram, his half cours yronne;
    And smale foweles, maken melodye,
    That slepen al the nyght with open iye;
    So priketh hem nature, in hir corages,
    Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrymages;
    And Palmeres for to seeken straunge strondes,
    To ferne halwes, kouthe in sondry londes;
    And specially, from euery shyres ende,
    Of Engelond to Caunterbury they wende;
    The holy blisful martir for to seke,
    That hem hath holpen whan þt they weere seeke.
- and is also literal gibberish to most English-speakers.

Contractions, modern slang and modern figures of speech are frequent throughout Fire Emblem text, many of which wouldn't develop until very recently (they are placed subtly and often deconstructed, though).
But excluding them means you have to write a paragraph of text to convey what can be summed up with a figure of speech, and doing so would make every conversation drag on into unpleasant lengths.

Interestingly, the wide range of romance languages that shaped the English language raises the theory that every word we use is a compressed concept or idea; bouquet (stolen from French), for example, literally means 'a little slice of woodland' and infers the image of flowers, sunbeams, butterflies and little critters.
I'm not sure what this has to do with the current topic, though. It's 8.30am, I should probably be sleeping instead of writing small lectures on the history of the English language.

The point is, Fire Emblem uses a Modern English speech pattern which has been peppered here and there with Early Modern and pseudo-Victorian English artefacts to create the illusion of archaism. It isn't uncommon for characters of lower class use straight Modern English (Wil is a good example).

Staying true to the original work and trying to maintain a PG rating is a valid point, though.
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Freenhult
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Joined: Jan 24 2010, 04:11 AM

Feb 3 2010, 01:15 AM #6

Sorry to disappoint, but I don't need a lecture.

To your first point, incorrect. The cost of reproducing literature back in any time period BEFORE and even during the advent of the printing press would lead any sane person to learn how to properly use contractions and abbreviations in their writing. And this would logically move into daily speech, especially with commoners. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbreviation

Also, Middle-English was on its way out after the 15th Century, but however developed into what is regarded Early Modern English on the British Isles which is what is represented in most dialog recorded during the later 15th and early 17th century. Keep in mind that Old English is in fact a very strong relative to ancient Nordic languages as it WAS part of the Anglo-Saxon language tradition.

The fact that Fire Emblem neglected this fact, is probably due to the fact that they didn't really care about how European Medieval was truly spoken compared to how their history was in Japan. Why this point is even being talked about I don't even know.

As for...
But excluding them means you have to write a paragraph of text to convey what can be summed up with a figure of speech, and doing so would make every conversation drag on into unpleasant lengths.
I'm extremely curious as how you developed a reasonable list of old figures of speech, and in fact, the examples you have listed seem to be quite extreme in my mind. It should and would have been unbecoming for a young lord or noble to speak in such a way, much less the unrealistic relationship that the lords and nobles seem to have with each other in most FE games. However that fact can not be changed and must be enforced as to keep with the games tradition. The language much be confluent and streamlined in such a way that it keeps to the same pattern that is used with a bit of spice.

I truly don't see the need for much profanity at all, as the English language today has -many- words and phrases that would be better suited for the job.
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The Merc
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Feb 3 2010, 03:02 AM #7

Free.
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Myke
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Feb 3 2010, 04:12 AM #8

Sorry to disappoint, but I don't need a lecture.
...to be played truely... ...the spirit of the intial series...
Sorry for making assumptions.
Irony aside, no sarcasm intended here.
To your first point, incorrect. The cost of reproducing literature back in any time period BEFORE and even during the advent of the printing press would lead any sane person to learn how to properly use contractions and abbreviations in their writing. And this would logically move into daily speech, especially with commoners.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbreviation
I don't see how this at all relates to my first point (that the English used back then would be unrecognisable to us, and thus speech patterns and vernacular were a moot point), but sure, okay. If you'll read the article, it states that abbreviations began more common use during the standardisation of the English language - from the 15th to the 17th century, as Old English and Middle English began dying out. The very languages I argued FE people would talk in.
If you check the source they cite for this, it is further explained that the use of abbreviations and contractions in the English language was largely born from scribes using shorthand when writing down the long-winded and exhausting speeches used in the medieval period. As in, FEland.
Also, Middle-English was on its way out after the 15th Century, but however developed into what is regarded Early Modern English on the British Isles which is what is represented in most dialogue recorded during the later 15th and early 17th century. Keep in mind that Old English is in fact a very strong relative to ancient Nordic languages as it WAS part of the Anglo-Saxon language tradition.
Cheap shot. Otherwise, nothing really to say here. I don't particularly see how it pertains to the discussion.
The fact that Fire Emblem neglected this fact, is probably due to the fact that they didn't really care about how European Medieval was truly spoken compared to how their history was in Japan.  Why this point is even being talked about I don't even know.
Because the use of modern speech, slang and values allows the player to better relate to and understand the story?
The vernacular back then in feudal times was much much different than now.
I don't know, you brought it up.
I'm extremely curious as how you developed a reasonable list of old figures of speech, and in fact, the examples you have listed seem to be quite extreme in my mind. It should and would have been unbecoming for a young lord or noble to speak in such a way, much less the unrealistic relationship that the lords and nobles seem to have with each other in most FE games. However that fact can not be changed and must be enforced as to keep with the games tradition. The language much be confluent and streamlined in such a way that it keeps to the same pattern that is used with a bit of spice.
The examples listed include;
Melanie, a street-raised cut-purse and cut-throat whose lack of morals is only offset by her wide array of skills
Zephyr, an aloof Pegasus mercenary with her head in the clouds - who addresses' Melanie's language on multiple occasions (though usually because the 'boss' is coming)
Fargus, a pirate. As in kill-an-entire-ship-of-merchants-then-drag-their-wares-back-to-port-to-be-spent-on-drugs-and-hookers, wanted-in-six-countries, rapist, coward and drunkard
Mazda, a corrupt and rather drunk Captain of the Bernese royal guard who is used to having whatever he wants thrown at him
and Uther, the rebellious young prince trying to prove he isn't who his father wants him to be, who just witnessed Mazda and his boys cornering and harassing an innocent woman
I truly don't see the need for much profanity at all, as the English language today has -many- words and phrases that would be better suited for the job.
TVtropes puts it better than I do;
The otherwise excellent English localization for Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance was tarnished somewhat by the use of the word 'dang.' Seeing as the game's plot involved genocide, racism, and a touch of implied homosexual lust, it seems odd that they decided to dumb down the language. Actually, a lot of otherwise good Nintendo games fall victim to this.
Particularly jarring when the commander, in danger of being slaughtered along with his friends and family at the hands of the villain, growls "dang it!"
However, if Ike dies on Endgame, he says "damn", thus showing perhaps he was just THAT tactful a person.


You're entitled to your opinion, I have to say this now. Lately, I've just been in a competitive mood for some reason.
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Sui-kun
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Feb 3 2010, 05:45 AM #9

Well, I would say reserved, but I think it's a little more complicated than that...

My arsenal of curse words, for instance, includes "shit", "fuck", and "bitch" to name a few. But I don't consider "bastard" a curse word, and therefore I find it alright to put in the game. "Shit-head" seems like an insult used more in a city ghetto, so I don't think it fits here. Same goes for any words with "fuck" in it. On the other hand, I feel that "horseshit" is fine if used sparingly. "Damn" is also fine, and can probably be used as your default curse. So, as you can see, different people have different definitions of what cursing is and is not.

"Dang" and "darn it" are unacceptable.

More points:

1. I do agree with Mr. Freen. It doesn't help that the source material (Blazing Sword) was very reserved in terms of cussing. I think the most we saw was "Dastard!" and "Curse him!" Like Mr. Freen said, if you want your fan game to feel like it has a valid connection to the commercial game, don't let the script-style veer too far off. Keep the feel.

2. Everyone in this game looks like a cartoon character. They have big anime-style eyes. Their sprites are smallish and exaggerated, and they have colorful hair. If the sprite style was more realistic and grungy, then putting in lots of cussing would feel right at home. But the style of this game is much more simplistic and colorful, and it will probably clash with the cussing if there's too much of it.

3. The maker of this game has probably passed the teenage years and is capable of dishing out a healthy dosage of "shits" and "fucks" without a second thought. He can go ahead and squeeze as many curses into the script as he wants. But he should keep his audience in mind, as he is not making this only for himself. Who will be playing his game? Senior citizens? Elementary schoolers? Young adults? Maybe he can release a censored, public version, then keep a director's cut to himself?


I don't know about anyone else, but games always feel very amateurish to me when cussing gets out of hand, as though the writer couldn't think of anything wittier, and decided to fill it all up with cusses. :/

Melanie is quite funny though. If this game does go "free", I wouldn't mind it as much if she's around.
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shadowofchaos
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Joined: Feb 3 2010, 08:10 AM

Feb 3 2010, 08:15 AM #10

Just as someone just stated... if you want a "prequel" you would likely go for the feel of the original game...

I could have sworn that if I were in Eli's situation when I found out that I killed the woman I loved... that I'd have a bit of a hard time not saying "Damn"... but somehow, the game didn't do that...

I say, keep the feel of FE7... maybe let a few "Damns" slip in there since it IS a fan made game... though not the "high end curse words" like the f-bomb....

That would be:
Restricted - maybe three or four times, a fair few 'damns'
I voted that, however, I would be COMPLETELY fine with "Reserved" ._.

After all it is an original work by you guys...

Used in casual conversation? That a bit too much if you ask me...

Think of it like the ESRB would be rating the thing... FE with an "M" Rating JUST because of a bit stronger language in CASUAL conversation?

Sounds like Grand Theft Auto style dialogue to me ._.
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Joined: Feb 3 2010, 01:44 PM

Feb 3 2010, 01:47 PM #11

Especially considering the characters I've seen so far, I vote 'reserved.' If it's nobles and knights you're working with, cussing all the time seems kind of out of place... Especially the kind of cussing in the example.

Also, 'shit-head?' Just how old is Uther in this?
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Emblem
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Feb 3 2010, 06:44 PM #12

I voted restricted, but...

Really, looking at all of this, it might just be better not to have any curse words at all.
Not that I would be offended by a few here and there, but in order to make it so that there can be no one you could possibly offend, it would be best just to have a clean slate for the game. It is far less likely that there would be someone offended by the fact that there aren't any curse words compared to those who could be offended cause there are.

Besides, if there is anything I know about gamers, even if there are no swear words in the game, they'll add them in themselves. :grin:
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Rewjeo
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Feb 4 2010, 01:43 PM #13

I voted restricted. That way you feel as though there's actually strong emotion behind them when they say it. Except Melanie. She can swear all she wants. A bit of comic relief there. And maybe some stuff with the cruder bosses so that you get an idea of what they're like. Basically, I would say use swear words to show something, not just to use them.
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The Blind Archer
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Feb 4 2010, 10:39 PM #14

Sui-kun @ Feb 3 2010, 05:45 AM wrote: 1. I do agree with Mr. Freen. It doesn't help that the source material (Blazing Sword) was very reserved in terms of cussing. I think the most we saw was "Dastard!" and "Curse him!" Like Mr. Freen said, if you want your fan game to feel like it has a valid connection to the commercial game, don't let the script-style veer too far off. Keep the feel.

2. Everyone in this game looks like a cartoon character. They have big anime-style eyes. Their sprites are smallish and exaggerated, and they have colorful hair. If the sprite style was more realistic and grungy, then putting in lots of cussing would feel right at home. But the style of this game is much more simplistic and colorful, and it will probably clash with the cussing if there's too much of it.
I agree with Sui on these points. Free use of profanity will feel out of place, and it'll get old fast. Words like "damn", "crap", and "hell" I believe are fine, in the event that they're used to convey specific emotions. I've seen those words across localized FE titles a fair amount of times. And as it's been said, I think it's important that the prequel, no matter how unofficial, should keep the same overall atmosphere as its sequels.

I voted "restricted" myself, as there are other ways to convey someone being rude/rebellious/ect without resorting to use (or overuse) of "shit", "fuck", and so forth. If I wanted to hear that many harsh swearwords that often, I'd get an Xbox and play online. :X
Myke wrote:C- I'm starting to think you guys don't like Fire Emblem at all, and just got lost on the way to an FF forum (or some other game where every playthrough is identical).
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Dalsin
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Feb 6 2010, 06:34 AM #15

I voted for Restricted. I do want to have, the Fire Emblem Immortal Sword game close to the Rekka no Ken and Fuuin. just not over the top.
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